The Power Of Forgiveness

Forgiveness sounds simple until you’re the one carrying the wound. Tonight we sit down late and talk honestly about what “the power of forgiveness” really means when someone betrayed you, abused you, manipulated you, or just keeps doing the same hurtful thing. We’re not interested in shallow advice or religious guilt. We want clarity that helps you breathe again.

We start by defining forgiveness as a decision to release resentment, bitterness, vengeance, and the “debt” you feel someone owes you. Then we tackle a huge misconception: forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. You can forgive and still set boundaries. You can forgive and still remove access. You can forgive and still refuse to rebuild trust until there is real repentance, honesty, accountability, changed behavior, and time. We also talk about how people use “forgiveness” as a manipulation tactic, especially in toxic relationships, and why consequences still matter.

We anchor the conversation in Scripture, including Hebrews 12:15 on bitterness as a poisonous root, Romans 12:19 on vengeance belonging to God, Mark 11:25 on forgiving before you pray, and Jesus’ example on the cross. We also make room for the real-life side: trauma, church hurt, and the difference between forgiving someone and being healed from what they did.

If you’ve been stuck between guilt and wisdom, this will help you sort it out. Subscribe for weekly conversations, share this with someone who needs freedom, and leave a review with the biggest takeaway you’re walking away with.

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Transcript

Late Night Intro And Setup

Walter 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Stepping in Faith, where together we explore the importance of having a relationship with God and how that relationship with God can impact the relationship you have with others. I'm your host, Walter. I'm joined here alongside my lovely wife.

Shanea 0:15

Shinea.

Walter 0:16

Why are you laughing?

Shanea 0:18

Because he was looking at me.

Walter 0:20

So that made you laugh.

Shanea 0:21

But why you were looking at me?

Walter 0:24

I always look at you. Are you laughing because you're tired and you're becoming silly?

Shanea 0:30

Maybe. I was yawning, and so I was hoping that my yawn stopped before you was like, This is my wife.

Walter 0:37

Okay. This is episode. I don't know.

Speaker 5 0:43

Is it 12?

Walter 0:45

I think so. I believe this is episode 12.

unknown 0:48

I think.

Walter 0:49

Um actually this is episode. Let me see. Yeah, I believe it's episode 12. I could be wrong. Um is it not episode 13?

Shanea 1:05

I don't know, but I'm sure we'll figure it out by the time we post it.

Walter 1:09

It's actually episode 13.

Shanea 1:11

Okay.

Walter 1:12

Okay. So we are here. Episode 13. This is where we are at 12 something in the morning.

Speaker 2 1:19

Yes.

Walter 1:22

Um so this is episode 13, season two. We are trying our best to pump out these episodes once per week. We're just trying to figure out the schedule so we can adhere to the schedule that God has given us. So please bear with us and we thank you for your patience. Um we like to start these episodes out, these podcasts out with prayer. We're believers. I prayed last time. So I will have my wife lead us into prayer tonight, this morning.

Speaker 5 1:53

You prayed last time?

Walter 1:54

Yes. Let the Lord use you.

Prayer And Why We’re Here

Shanea 2:00

Father God, we thank you for this day. We thank you, Father God, for your love, your grace, your mercy. We thank you, Father God, for opening up the opportunity for us to be used by you, Father God. We thank you, Father God, for our listeners, for your listeners that you've called. By your grace, Father God, we thank you. We ask, Father God, that you will use our lips to speak what it is that you are saying and give the listeners ears to hear what it is that you are saying, Father God, and eyes to see you and everything that we are doing here on this podcast, Father God. In the mighty name of Jesus, we pray.

Walter 2:39

Amen. Amen. Make sure your phone is on vibrate. Even though no one's gonna be reaching out to you, it shouldn't be. But it may be an emergency.

Defining Forgiveness With Clarity

Walter 2:52

So uh what's the title of this week's episode?

Shanea 2:58

The power of forgiveness.

Walter 3:00

The power of forgiveness. Was that given to me or you?

Speaker 5 3:08

I think it was both, or kind of sort of.

Walter 3:10

Yeah. Well, I I heard I kept hearing forgiveness as far as I was praying on what the next episode should be on.

Shanea 3:17

I forgot what I was hearing, but it was something on along the lines of that.

Walter 3:20

Yeah, I kept hearing forgiveness. And I'm like, is this or boundaries or we took we touched on boundaries last time.

Shanea 3:27

Okay. I know that was last time.

Walter 3:30

Yeah. But I kept hearing forgiveness. And then I finally heard like Clear as Day, the power of forgiveness.

Shanea 3:38

So are we doing a power series?

Walter 3:40

Is that what no, I don't think so. Was that was the title of the last episode?

Speaker 5 3:45

Yes.

Walter 3:46

Okay, no. I just heard the power of forgiveness.

Speaker 5 3:49

The power of yes? Was that the last episode?

Walter 3:53

The power that lies in yes or something like that. I don't know. Anyhow, so the power of forgiveness. And that's what we're gonna discuss on this week's episode. So, um, one of the things that we touched on that was so vital and so key. Um and we can start this episode out by saying, because I think this is a challenge that many are faced with, and many people encourage people to do right. However, um forgiveness does not mean continuing the relationship.

Speaker 1 4:24

Forgiveness is simply forgiveness. Forgiveness.

Walter 4:36

Yeah.

Shanea 4:36

That was forgiveness.

Walter 4:37

What is forgiveness?

Shanea 4:38

Yeah.

Walter 4:39

So the definition, you got me skipping ahead. Forgiveness is the intentional decision to release resentment, bitterness, vengeance, or a debt you believe someone owes you because of a wrong they committed. So once again, forgiveness does not mean continuing the relationship. Forgiveness is simply forgiveness. I believe that's so important because a lot of people try to guilt trip people into continuing on in uh toxic relationships and say that you haven't forgiven me because you don't continue this relationship on with me. And it's not true. It's the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, which we would deal with later later.

Forgiveness Does Not Mean Access

Walter 5:20

And this is what I was what was coming to me as we was having a conversation we had. That one of the greatest misconceptions in the church is that forgiveness means restoring access, rebuilding trust, or continuing a relationship. Scripture teaches something different. Forgiveness is a command, but reconciliation is conditional. Right? So forgiveness is not primarily for the person who hurt you. We talked about this. Forgiveness is for your freedom. So when I'm forgiving someone, it's for me. When the Bible teaches us the importance of forgiving, it's for you because of what can uh what can begin to fester.

Shanea 6:02

Well, it's for you because God, the Bible says that God will not um forgive you.

Speaker 2 6:09

Yes.

Shanea 6:10

If you do not forgive. So if I want to get into the kingdom of heaven, I have to forgive. So forgiveness is for me, it's not for the other person. Um, but everybody knows forgiveness is supposed to be for you, but I don't think people really understand the power that lies in forgiveness. And it's uh uh attachment to salvation.

Walter 6:37

Yeah. Yeah, I think the other thing is also In healing. Yes, because if you don't forgive, the negative impact that it can have on your life is is extreme. The things that you can deal with, you know, bitterness, anger, frustration, yeah, rage, hatred, rage, it all festers and just becomes something that the longer you hold on to uh grievances or to uh to offenses, it just builds and becomes greater.

Shanea 7:11

Yeah, well, that's how the enemy gets you with emotions. So the Bible tells us not to rely on our emotions, right?

Walter 7:20

You're talking about Galatians.

Shanea 7:22

Yeah, but we should not be angry, right?

Walter 7:24

Be slow than anger. Be slow to anger because we're quick to listen and slow to anger, slow to speak.

Shanea 7:31

Anger is an opener door, it'll give a foothold to the devil, right? Um, don't have a spirit of fear, right? That's an emotion.

Walter 7:41

Yeah. Well, I mean, even touching on it, when unforgiveness remains in our heart, hearts, right? Anger, resentment, and bitterness begins to take root. If left unchecked, those roots can affect us spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and even physically. Because we can start seeing physical signs, you know, matters of the heart, essentially, it can start really negatively impacting you from a health perspective.

Shanea 8:09

Yeah, well, you start making decisions about your life and about other people based off of things that you are possibly or you are harboring in your heart, which is unforgiveness or resentment, and you start making decisions on are you gonna talk to this person, not to this person? Are you gonna go here? Are you not gonna go here? You know, are you going to open up to this person? Are you not gonna open up to this person? You know, things like that.

Walter 8:37

Yeah.

Bitterness Grows Roots And Spreads

Walter 8:38

Well, I mean, the the let's go to Hebrews 12 and 15. Uh, this is the New Living Translation version. And um just really to dig into what we're talking about, put scripture behind it. Uh, and it states that look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you corrupting many. That's really key.

Speaker 3 9:11

Mm-hmm.

Walter 9:13

Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you corrupting many.

Shanea 9:20

Right, it is what I was saying, like your decision that you make, it affects you and it affects all your other relationships around you. Even if, you know, certain people aren't the people who hurt you, but if you have unforgiveness towards a certain person, you could be mean, angry, bitter, or make decisions in other relationships that's affected.

Walter 9:44

Which is why you always have to do a heart check to really just make sure you're not holding on to any bitterness or unforgiveness in your heart towards anybody. Because it's just a natural, it's natural from a physical perspective to be offended when people do things to you. It's just human nature.

Speaker 3 10:04

Yeah.

Walter 10:05

Uh on a day-to-day basis, something is going to, someone is going to offend you in some way, shape, or form.

Shanea 10:12

But that's why we always have to take our thoughts captive because we can't be offended. You know, that's you know, something in your ear saying, hey, you should be offended by this.

Walter 10:24

Yeah.

Shanea 10:24

You should not like this.

Walter 10:25

But naturally, it happened.

Shanea 10:28

But that's not God.

Walter 10:29

No.

Shanea 10:30

God's not in your ear saying, you know what, they did you, they did you dirty.

Walter 10:33

Well, that goes back to why on a daily basis we have to crucify our flesh.

Speaker 3 10:38

Yeah.

Walter 10:38

Right. But just moving forward, just to as we're touching on forgiveness, right? And the definition of forgiveness, reiterating that again, is forgiveness is the intentional decision to release resentment, beneath vengeance, or a debt you believe someone owes you because of a wrong they committed. So it does not mean what happened was acceptable, right? It does not mean the pain wasn't real. It does not mean trust should immediately be restored. And it does not mean the relationship must continue. I think those are so important, especially within the relationship aspect or um within the context of a relationship, because in many cases people struggle with this, especially like with not only friendship but marriages or intimate relationships, even relationships with family members, to where you have this um this false sense of conviction that you think is coming from God. But in many times, I believe it's more so it's not necessarily conviction, but it's uh the word was on the tip of my tongue. It's uh it's not conviction. What is it? Help me, Holy Spirit. Um you know the word I'm looking for, but continue uh explain it. It's not conviction, Holy Spirit help me. Holy Spirit help me. When you feel um a burden, when you feel burdened by something that um you've done, or you feel the responsibility to do to stay in a relationship, what's the word for that?

Speaker 5 12:24

Pressure.

Walter 12:25

Not pressure. We'll come back to it.

Speaker 5 12:28

Convinced?

Walter 12:30

No. But it's not conviction, you're not feeling conviction. The word is there, uh, it'll come to me at some point. Let me see.

Guilt Manipulation And Consequences

Walter 12:40

Give me one second. Go ahead, babe.

Shanea 12:42

No, I I hear what you're saying. Like for me, I think that um people will try to people use forgiveness as a manipulation tactic or a gaslighting tactic um to keep you in captivity. And I know for me, that's happened to me like I'm 98% of all the relationships I've had.

Walter 13:16

And getting back to what I was saying, and I'll let you continue. So it's not conviction. One could say it's actually false guilt, or it's guilt or shame.

Shanea 13:28

Yeah.

Walter 13:29

So you get you get um, but it's more so guilt. So you you can misconstrue conviction and guilt. And so that guilt will cause you to say, okay, I gotta stay here. Shame can even come in, right?

unknown 13:43

Yeah.

Walter 13:43

And say, I have to stay in this relationship or I have to stay with this situation.

Shanea 13:47

Because people shame you. Yes. They gaslight you, they manipulate you.

Walter 13:51

Yes. But go ahead, continue.

Shanea 13:54

No, that's that's right. They manipulate you, they gaslight you, um, they make you feel bad about you choosing to go a certain way or a certain direction when someone has hurt you, and you're like, okay, well, I want to be done with you, and these are the consequences of your actions. And then that said person or other people around them will tell you you're in the wrong for not accepting their behavior by staying in that same place, by not um, or people they will manipulate you or gaslight you because they don't like they don't like the response that you've given them, even though you have forgiven them, but forgiveness still comes with a consequence.

Walter 14:52

There's still consequences associated with the actions. Yeah.

Shanea 14:57

And so, like in relationships, if a husband or a wife, you know, cheats on their spouse, and the spouse is the spouse either leaves, the spouse is uh distant, um, they could still have forgiven you, but it doesn't negate the fact that you did what you did to that person, and you have to accept the consequences as such. And you can't say that this person hasn't forgiven you because you are still uncomfortable with how they're treating you.

Walter 15:32

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's just important to understand that there's consequences to every decision that you make. And we we touched on that a little bit earlier. There's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.

Speaker 3 15:42

Right.

Walter 15:42

God calls us to forgive, but not every relationship is meant to be reconciled. And so we know once again, forgiveness is not um, it does not mean that you what happened was acceptable. It does not mean the pain wasn't real, that trust should immediately be restored. In many cases, you should not give that trust back to that person. Uh, that the relationship must continue. Uh, forgiveness involves actually acknowledging the wrongdoing, choosing not to remain controlled by anger or revenge. The Bible lets us know that vengeance belongs to God. Uh, releasing the offender from the personal debt of retaliation, even in the Lord's Prayer, it says, forgive us as we forgive our debtors. Um, moving forward without continually seeking to punish them.

Shanea 16:30

Yeah.

Walter 16:30

That's forgiveness. It's not holding any grudges, and it's just really putting it in God's hand and making it clear I'm releasing you to God.

Speaker 3 16:37

Yeah.

Walter 16:37

What you did to me was wrong. What you did to me was not right. Yet I am not going to hold on to this. I have to let this go because if I don't, it's going to eat away at some and eat away at me.

Shanea 16:49

Right. Because at the end of the day, then you start to try and play God, right? And try to give them the consequences or or not allow God to move in their life so that they can change and be a different person.

Walter 17:04

Mm-hmm. And so, or the fact that that may not be God's will for their life.

Shanea 17:10

What do you mean?

Walter 17:11

For them to change.

Shanea 17:12

It may not be God's will for them to like uh for them to change, but you can be interfering by either staying or, you know, conforming to what their idea of what of how you should be forgiving them.

Walter 17:29

And the key scripture, once again, um, is is Romans 12, verse 19.

Stop Chasing Revenge And Let God

Walter 17:34

Uh New Living Translation, it states, Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the scripture says, I will take revenge, I will pay them back, says the Lord. Instead, if your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals of shame on their heads. Don't let evil conquer you, but conquer evil by doing by doing good. And so, with that being the case, it's really important to understand that it is not our responsibility to take revenge. We leave that to God, which sometimes can be challenging because people be on some other stuff. However, it's important that we practice on a daily basis walking in forgiveness or living a lifestyle that is rooted in forgiveness. And so once again, what forgiveness is not, let's let's dig into this. Forgiveness is not saying the offense was okay. Forgiveness is not pretending it never happened. Forgiveness is not reconciliation with an unsafe person. Forgiveness is not reconciliation with an unsafe person. Many uh this impacts men, but especially women. This is key.

Unsafe Relationships And Real Boundaries

Walter 18:55

Forgiveness is not reconciliation with an unsafe person. If that man is abusive, if he's controlling, if he's doing things to harm you're not sure, physical or emotional, emotionally, or verbally, financially. That's it. It's better to not be in that situation. Reconciliation is sometimes not an option. Many times it's not an option. There are, you know, this is really serious. There are a plethora of people that unfortunately lose their lives. My wife touched on it in the previous episode. Uh plethora of women losing their lives as we speak, unfortunately being in uh extremely uh volatile or extremely toxic relationships that turn violent. Uh, sometimes there are situations that we see where you have uh the husband that comes along and married a woman and he ended up losing his life from a previous relationship that she was in because of that being a toxic and uh a very dangerous relationship. So we have to be really careful with that. Reconciliation with an unsafe person, that's not forgiveness. Uh, forgiveness is not automatically restoring trust. Forgiveness is not removing consequences for someone's actions. We are huge on consequences. It's one of the things that we teach our children that every decision you make has consequences. And sometimes when you look at adults, we see adults, and and we touched on this before, women, you stay away from men who uh don't understand that there's consequences associated with the decisions that they make or who lack accountability, who who fails to be held accountable for anything that they do. That's really important because that that's a dangerous place to be. So um, babe, you want to get into some of those practical examples.

Practical Examples Of Wise Forgiveness

Shanea 20:58

Um, some practical examples. You can forgive someone who stole from you while still choosing never to lend them money again. It's a good one. You can forgive someone who betrayed your trust while still maintaining healthy boundaries. You can forgive someone and still remove access to your life.

Walter 21:24

That's a big one.

Shanea 21:26

Forgiveness removes the debt from your heart, it does not remove wisdom from your mind.

Walter 21:32

And unfortunately, a lot of times, especially with people in the church, we lack wisdom when we're when we're operating in the area of forgiveness.

Shanea 21:41

Wisdom and discernment.

Walter 21:42

We lack it. We think forgiveness means letting that person back in. Matter of fact, we have leaders that would teach you forgiveness means letting that person back in. And that is not forgiveness, that's reconciliation. You're not called to reconcile with everyone, you have to have wisdom. So in understanding forgiveness, baby, you want to read Matthew 18, 21 through 22?

Forgiveness As A Daily Lifestyle

Speaker 1 22:18

Matthew 20 Matthew 18, 21 through 22. This is the New Living Translation.

Shanea 22:31

Then Peter came to him. You said 21 and 22?

Walter 22:35

Uh verse 21 and then 22. Yeah.

Shanea 22:38

Then Peter came to him and asked, Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times? No, not seven times, Jesus replied, but seventy-seven or seventy times. Seventy times seven.

Speaker 2 22:56

Yeah.

Shanea 22:58

You said 21 and 2019.

Walter 23:00

And 22. So we touched on this earlier, right? What Jesus was really explaining to Peter is that forgiveness should become a lifestyle.

Speaker 3 23:10

Yes.

Walter 23:11

It should it becomes a way of life for you, right? Um so it's not a question of how many times should I forgive someone, right? It's how much God has forgiven me. And so you're always consistently having that and looking through it from that lens.

Shanea 23:30

Yeah, it's God forgives you every single time.

Walter 23:34

Even when Jesus was on the uh cross and he was being mocked and they did everything they did to him, he still looked up to heaven. He said, Father, forgive me. Forgive them for they know not what they do. You okay?

Shanea 23:45

Yeah, I just gotta chill.

Walter 23:47

And so, you know, that's so important, right? Um it's just understanding that it's a way of life. And another scripture that people can look at is Luke 17, 3 and 4. And essentially it states that if your brother sins against you, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him. Even if he sins again against you seven times in a day, and seven times come back to you saying, I repent, you must forgive him. Now that's specifically referring to your brother. Now that's another topic in another episode because we call people our brothers and sisters, and our brothers and sisters. But I'll leave that there. Uh so and we touched on this, right? The greatest example of forgiveness is what the cross? What Jesus said on the cross, what Jesus did on

Jesus On The Cross And Our Model

Walter 24:39

the cross.

Shanea 24:39

Yeah.

Walter 24:40

That's the greatest example of forgiveness, right? Um, that can be found in Luke 23, 34. Uh, like I said before, after he was beaten, mocked, rejected, and crucified, Jesus still looked up and said, Father, forgive them, right? They know not what they do. That's so powerful that they took him through all of that. I mean, he was beaten beyond recognition. Then after being beaten beyond recognition by his own people, he was also um, was it flogged? Was it flogged? He was flogged by the Romans. Is it flogged?

Speaker 5 25:16

Yeah, flogged.

Walter 25:17

Okay, flogged by the Romans, um, which was a horrible way to be beaten, right? Then he had them actually insert a crown of thorns on his head. Then he had nails that was driven through his body, all of these things that he went through when he was already on the brink of death, yet he still looked up to heaven in the midst of all of that and said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.

Shanea 25:44

Yeah. And our goal is to be like Jesus, and in being like Jesus, we have to show grace to others.

Walter 25:55

It's not always easy.

Shanea 25:56

It's not easy because we're human, you know. Um, and we live in this fallen world, and people are influenced um by the enemy through their trauma, through their hurt, through their pain. Um, and Jesus sees all of that. Yes, he sees, he knows why you did what you did. He knows. But us looking at a natural perspective, I don't know why that man did that thing to that that child, or that woman did that thing to that man, or that man did that thing to that woman.

Walter 26:38

It still doesn't make it right, however, and I think those are some of the most challenging instances of forgiveness when when someone has abused you uh sexually, emotionally, or mentally or physically. Uh

When Trauma Shapes How We Trust

Walter 26:54

I I know for me personally that was challenging, but I had to get to a point of no longer hating my mom's ex-husband because of what he did to me, my sister, and my mother.

Shanea 27:06

Yeah.

Walter 27:06

I mean, he was a very evil person.

Shanea 27:09

Yeah.

Walter 27:10

Yet because I was harboring unforgiveness and hatred in my heart, it caused me to even look at the church and look at uh different men in church and from a different perspective and not be able to receive from them because I just was always thinking uh whether there was a side to them that no one else knew that their family knew. Because this was someone who was a leader in the church and had churches under him, but was by all accounts a monster.

Shanea 27:42

Yeah.

Walter 27:42

You know? And so once again, forgiveness is not for them, it's for you.

Shanea 27:48

Yeah.

Walter 27:49

Because that was destroying me and making me angry and uh and creating things in me that was not of God.

Shanea 27:56

Yeah. And there's this sense of control that you know we're taught to have. Um, and then you just kind of have to let that go because it's not in your control what happens to this person or you know, because vengeance is the Lord's, right? Um, and then I forgot, where is that in the Bible? Where it uh I don't know, but it's it was almost like um dang, where is it in the Bible?

Walter 28:31

But it's gonna come back to it.

Shanea 28:33

I can come back to it, but I know it's it's basically like if you are harboring like a a vengeant type spirit, right? Um, if you're wanting to see get back, God is not going to give you the satisfaction of seeing it.

Walter 28:52

Well, see, now I don't know if you're referring to the scripture. It touches on being careful when people are going through that and you, you know, laughing at what they're going through because that can turn around and come on you. Now, I don't know if that's what you're referring to, but that's a scripture that also comes to mind.

Shanea 29:10

No, but that that is a good scripture, but no, that's not what I'm talking about. Okay. Perfectly somebody could find it and put it in the comments or something.

unknown 29:16

Okay.

Shanea 29:16

If they know what I'm talking about.

Walter 29:18

So moving forward then, right? Um, scripture consistently refers to what? Uh forgiveness as a debt, right? You're releasing a debt. And when we talked about the Lord's Prayer earlier, that's actually specifically Matthew 6 and 12. And uh that was coming to me earlier. Uh Matthew 6 verse 12. And it states, and forgive us our butt no, I don't like that. Let's go to the New King James Version. Oh, we can go to the NASB. Give me a second to read it. Yes, uh, NASB. And forgive us our debts as we we also have forgiven our debtors. Right? And so with that being the case, um it's really important that we understand the the gravity or how important it is to walk in forgiveness. It's interesting that it's referred to as a debt versus debtors. Right? So um you have Matthew 6 and 12, you have Ephesians 4:32, um, you have Colossians 3 and 13, and these are just examples of scriptures that touches on the importance of forgiveness. So um, with that being the case, it's just really as simple as forgiveness means releasing the offense into God's hands instead of carrying it yourself. And I I mean I can only imagine the burden of how it feels. And I've been there when you're carrying this unforgiveness in your heart. It could be a heavy weight, it could be an extremely heavy weight. You looking for that scripture?

Shanea 31:28

No, I was just seeing what um debt meant, like in Greek, if it was like a different like translation.

Walter 31:39

So we're moving on along. Let's see.

Forgiveness Versus Reconciliation Explained

Walter 31:46

We, and this may be a short episode, we have forgiveness versus reconciliation. And we touched on this at the beginning of the of the episode. I think many people struggle with this, especially believers, especially people in the church, because you're taught it's almost like um many are taught that the two coincides, right?

Shanea 32:06

What?

Walter 32:07

Forgiveness and reconciliation.

Shanea 32:09

Oh yeah. And so um Yeah, I I think and not even just church, it's just like tradition and culture, just in general. It's like, oh, that's your mother. You have to forgive them. Okay, you can forgive them, and I can still move on with my life without mom or without dad or without brother or sister or without pastor or without friend.

Walter 32:34

Or have an understanding that part of the reason that you're doing that is because they're just a very toxic person.

Shanea 32:39

Yes. It's like, it's like forgive them because they're not gonna change.

Walter 32:47

Well, if you know they're not gonna change, why would you remain around someone who's hurting you?

Shanea 32:54

Exactly. It's like people don't hold people accountable for their actions and they want you to just accept their behavior because that's just who they are. That's how they've always been. And um it's not cool.

Walter 33:11

Well, it's really we touched on this, and this is kind of going all fill, but it's really important because there's this new trend, especially with men. Um, like you said, people aren't held accountable. And we don't hold ourselves accountable. So if you do something, it just falls along the lines that there's consequences associated with what you do.

Shanea 33:34

Yeah.

Walter 33:35

Have, for example, have I gone through traumatic experiences as a child? Yes. Was I abused as a child? Yes. I went through all of those things, but that does not mean that I could utilize that as a crutch to justify doing things and carrying on with particular behaviors, um, and saying that you need to not only forgive me, but you should reconcile with me. Because the reason I did this is just because I wasn't loved.

Shanea 34:02

I wasn't loved as a kid.

Walter 34:03

I wasn't loved as a kid.

Shanea 34:04

I didn't have a father.

Walter 34:06

I didn't have a father in my life, and I'm working on myself. And so it's used almost to dismiss the fact that there should be consequences.

Shanea 34:15

Right.

Walter 34:15

And you it shows your level of maturity and where you are in life to understand that yo, I did this and I had to deal with the consequences associated with it. So really digging into this once again, the two were the two aren't the same, right?

Speaker 3 34:34

Yeah.

Walter 34:34

So I think we touched on this before. We did not. So when you think of forgiveness, right? Forgiveness requires one person. Reconciliation requires two people. Forgiveness is a personal choice. Reconciliation requires mutual effort. Forgiveness can happen immediately, and reconciliation usually takes time. Forgiveness releases bitterness, reconciliation rebuilds relationships. Forgiveness does not require trust, reconciliation does. So we have to stop approaching forgiveness as if it is somehow connected to reconciliation or getting people to uh guilt trick up, trip, trip us into, or trick us into believing that we have to operate from a place of reconciliation where God has called us to forgive. Sometimes God has called you to move on from those relationships, or he never called you into those relationships in the first place. So you're reconciling, you're reconciling yourself back into disobedience.

Shanea 35:39

Yeah. And I don't know how how do I say this. It's like when you're when you've already kind of when you've had that hurt or that pain and someone's done something to you, right? That's your opportunity to step away, to distance yourself, right? To come out of agreement with the thing that they did. And it seems like forgiveness and reconciliation, people think that it's the same thing because it the reconciliation part is like you coming back into agreement with the thing that they did. And when you're reconciling with someone, it should be a two-way street, right? It should be that they are willing, able to change you. You've already seen a change in behavior and you agree with that behavior.

Walter 36:39

What?

Shanea 36:40

Not with the behavior that they had previously.

Walter 36:44

Well, even with reconciliation, it's really important to understand that if someone has done something and you're trying to reconcile, part of reconciliation is that person who did offend you, who did hurt you, being able to admit that they did do something wrong and not attempt to dismiss it as if it's not something that you should feel a particular way about it. And then the other thing is understanding that now you both have to work through this problem of trust. That trust is not restored simply because they want the trust to be restored. But that trust is restored only when that person that you've hurt is in the place to trust you again. That I can forgive you, but now you have to work on regaining my trust because of what you've done. And sometimes it's even harder to do depending on what you did to that person.

Shanea 37:38

Yeah.

Walter 37:39

And that's work that you have to be willing to put in, just as that person has to put in work to be willing to allow you to regain their trust.

Shanea 37:48

Yeah. Because the the truth of the matter is, and you have to accept it yourself, is that you're untrustworthy.

Walter 37:54

Yes. And that's that's a character flaw. That's something that you have to have the Holy Spirit work on. And in many cases, relationships like that, they're only going to be reconciled by way of the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 2 38:05

Yes.

Walter 38:06

So um the thing is this right here interesting.

Forgiving Without Apologies Or Change

Walter 38:18

Which is true. So you can forgive someone who never apologizes. You can forgive someone who never changes, and you can forgive someone who never admits, admit, they never admit to their wrongs.

Shanea 38:35

Yeah.

Walter 38:36

But the key thing is though, in doing these things, you have to remove yourself and remove that person out of your life. Because why would you continue to do life with someone who never apologize? Why would you continue to do life with someone who don't change? And why would you continue to do life with someone who never admits their wrong, who lacks accountability, who always blaming you, who feels that they do everything right?

Shanea 39:04

It just and it just gets worse.

Walter 39:05

Yes.

Shanea 39:06

Oh my gosh.

Walter 39:07

So that doesn't mean, once again, you could forgive them, but that doesn't mean continuing to do life with them. And that's a point that has to consistently be driven home. Stop doing life with people who show you that they I tell my wife all the time, and one of the things I live by is if a person shows you who you are, it's your responsibility to believe them.

Shanea 39:30

Yes. Don't let anyone gaslight you into saying, into staying in an abusive, emotional roller coaster relationship. Because this is a relationship podcast.

Walter 39:42

Yeah.

Shanea 39:43

If you are in a relationship and someone does something to you that you don't like and they have done it repeatedly to you, that is not uh grounds for you to break your boundaries in the things that are causing you to be in pain. You should not reconcile with an abuser.

What Abuse Looks Like In Real Life

Walter 40:12

Yeah.

Shanea 40:12

You should not reconcile someone who is abusing you. And people don't really know what abuse is. Abuse is abuse looks like I'm cussing you out, I'm calling you out your name, I am taking advantage of your money, of your time. Um, I am putting your health at risk. I am um manipulating you into doing things that I only I want to do.

Walter 40:43

And they're all intertwined. It it it kind of connects together. It's interconnected. Typically, if someone is verbally abusive, they're also physically abusive. Many, many cases, they start out as being verbally abusive and then they move towards being physically abusive, then they move towards wanting to control your finances and wanting to control every aspect of your life. But it's all intertwined in one. They move towards manipulation, they move towards gaslighting.

Shanea 41:10

And they connect to people who are exactly that way. So if they're doing something to you, they might have a gang of people who will come at you and say, you know what, you haven't forgiven them yet. Because you're still mad at them, or you haven't forgiven them because you you want to leave.

Walter 41:28

Which is why it's important to have an understanding of what forgiveness is versus reconciliation. And even if you're gonna reconcile, we we touched on this before. Reconciliation requires repentance, honesty, accountability, a change behavior, and rebuilding trust. You have all of that have to be there. If that's not there, you're not gonna be able to reconcile. And Proverbs 423, right? Above all else, guard your heart for everything you do flows from it.

Shanea 41:58

Yeah. Yeah, which is what I said at the beginning of the episode. That's a good scripture to piggyback off of. So what I said. Because you're you're every decision that you make, everything that you say. So it can be based off of hurt, pain.

Walter 42:25

So, really touching on this again, right? And I think that's important. Like, when you don't forgive, basically, you still give that person control over you.

Speaker 6 42:36

Oh, yeah.

Walter 42:37

So when you ref when you refuse to forgive someone, you often stay connected to the very pain God wants to heal. We talked about what bitterness can become in prison, forgiveness becomes the key. And most importantly, you give that person control. Right? And so, Mark 11 and 25, what does

Forgiveness Before Prayer And Worship

Walter 42:59

that say? Mark 11. And I know we're giving a lot of scriptures tonight, but this is something that's really important. In Mark 11, verse 25, it states that whenever you, and this is I'm reading from the NASB, I go to the NLT. Um, and I need to get an I need to get an NASB Bible. Uh, we need to have at least one in the house. Uh and food for thought, um, because we saw a comment. We have physical Bibles in our home. We have currently versed in both the NLT version, New Living Translation, and we have the New King James Version.

Speaker 6 43:37

We have Hebrew version.

Walter 43:39

And oh yeah, we have the Hebrew version, we have other books as far as studying on the Bible that some people may think is controversial, controversial. Versual controversial, but um we do. It's because of it being a podcast setting and what we're doing, it's just more convenient to just utilize our. Depending on what we're doing on a day-to-day basis, we may grab our Bibles, we may use our iPads, we may even grab our phones. We have Bibles on our iPads, on our phones, whatever. We do believe that all people should have physical Bibles. Just in case anything was to ever happen, you actually have the physical copies of the Bible. One of the things that I look towards, I've studied the NIV Bible. I've studied the New King James Version Bible. It's the Bible I started off reading. It's what I learned to read first. Um, followed by the NIV and more recently the NLT. And now I'm gonna start looking into the NASB. Um, but that's just our thoughts on it.

Shanea 44:46

Yeah, I mean, when you see preachers at preachers in the pulpit, they don't always have their Bible, their preacher from their Bible, they have their iPad.

Walter 44:54

Yes. So with that being the case, um let's look at this. It states, what was I about to read?

Speaker 6 45:04

Um Mark 11.

Walter 45:06

Mark 11 and verse what?

Speaker 6 45:08

25.

Walter 45:09

Look at that memory. Mark 11, verse 25. It states that, but when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your father in heaven will forgive your sins too.

Shanea 45:24

Every day that needs to be a prayer.

Walter 45:27

God help me to walk in forgiveness. Right?

Shanea 45:30

Cleanse me, purify my heart.

Walter 45:33

Because it's so easy to carry around around wounds that have been there for years and decades. Many of us do. There's areas within our lives that there's it could be something as simple as someone stealing a piece of candy from you when you was a child.

Speaker 3 45:48

Yeah.

Walter 45:48

And you could still be harboring unforgiveness in your heart for that candy piece of candy they took.

Shanea 45:53

You don't know. And you're wondering why you operate the way you operate, and it's because Sandy took your chocolate.

Walter 46:00

And then when you dig deeper, others are carrying betrayal, rejection, abandonment, divorce, abuse, church hurt, or even family contact conflict. And we're consistently in relationships, we're in relationship after relationship. We are hurt by people, we feel abandoned, we feel neglected, we feel rejected, and all of that stuff, you carry that on, and it becomes a burden, and you're wondering why you're dealing with ailments, you're dealing with issues that you're dealing with. There's certain areas that you feel like you can't get a breakthrough in. There could be unforgiveness that's there that you're harboring. And then when you dig into that, a lot of people, a lot of times, unfortunately, they deal with actual heart

Trauma In The Body And The Spirit

Walter 46:41

issues.

Shanea 46:41

Oh, absolutely. Especially when you're dealing with resentment, you deal with the, you know, a lot of heart issues or cancer. Um, so you see a lot of women who were abused who end up dying from cancer. I've seen it so many times.

Speaker 4 46:56

Yeah.

Shanea 46:57

I've seen them be in abusive relationships, emotionally abusive relationships for so long just because they they don't believe in divorce, but they end up dying from cancer. And he's going on living his best life.

Walter 47:09

Get married again and everything.

Shanea 47:11

Get married again and everything. And then you have someone, some people who were in toxic relationships, not in those relationships anymore, but still dealing with issues in their body. Trauma's stored in your body, right? It's in the flesh.

Walter 47:27

Which once again, we got to go back to this, right?

Shanea 47:30

Bitterness is a fleshly emotion.

Walter 47:33

When we we uh we talk about this all the time. Whenever you see something going on in the natural, always question what you're not seeing in the spirit.

Speaker 3 47:44

Yeah.

Walter 47:44

God revealed to me what's really taking place from a spiritual perspective, which is impacting the natural.

Speaker 3 47:49

Yeah.

Walter 47:50

Because we a lot of times when we see um, when we start seeing it in the natural, in many cases it's too late because it's already started in the spirit, or it's something that needs to be uh dealt with in the spirit in order to be able to truly deal with it in the natural.

Speaker 6 48:08

Right.

Walter 48:09

And I think a lot of times we try to deal with it in the natural first without tackling the spirit aspect of things. So now you think that you fixed the situation, but it's still there because from a spiritual perspective, it's almost like the analogy of right, when you're dealing with it, you see the tree, right? The tree is the natural. Like what I could see, the tree, the stump, all of that, that's the natural part. I can't see the roots.

Shanea 48:37

Right.

Walter 48:37

The roots is the spirit. So that's the way you look at it. So you try to cut the tree or you try to cut something, but you don't uproot it. And the only way that you can uproot it is from approaching it and tackling it within the spirit realm first.

Speaker 3 48:54

Right.

Walter 48:55

That's through prayer, that's through fasting, that's through being led by the Holy Spirit, that's through having a relationship with the Holy Spirit, that you're able to deal with it within the spirit realm so that you can effectively tackle it within the natural realm.

Shanea 49:08

Yeah.

Walter 49:09

So did not want to go with that, but okay. Holy, that's the Holy Spirit. Ain't got nothing to do with that. So some questions that we can think about,

Questions To Test Your Heart

Walter 49:18

right? Uh, is there someone I need to forgive? Have I confused forgiveness with reconciliation? Am I holding on to bitterness? Am I waiting for an apology before I release the offense? And have I truly entrusted justice to God? That's big. Do you truly trust God enough to say, God, you are the avenger? I am placing this in your hand. And however you decide to seek vengeance, that is on you. I'm not looking for vengeance, I'm not waiting on the person's downfall. I'm just gonna let God be God.

Shanea 50:00

And I do want to say, I know a lot of times um from personal experience and from talking with other women, when you're leaving a relationship, you've thought you've forgiven that person, but that hurt is still there. It'll it still comes up, it still shows up in some way, shape, form, or fashion. And you really have to sit with the Lord in prayer. And not because you're not thinking about this person, not because you're not talking about this person, that doesn't mean you you haven't forgiven them or have forgiven them, right? You literally have to sit with God and say, God, show me anything in my heart or anything in me that's still holding on to unforgiveness for this person, any hurt that they did, anything that, because the thing is, if somebody hurt you, more than likely they hurt you in other areas too, right? They didn't just do it this one time. It might have been multiple times. And so you might have forgiven them for that time, but what about the time before that? Or what about this other time? Or what about that thing? And so you really gotta go to God and say, God, did I forgive them for everything that they did? Not just like that last time you forgave them, but all the other times before that.

Forgiveness And Healing Are Not Same

Walter 51:23

Well, I think the the the best way to explain that and what was coming to me as you were saying that is just like healing, forgiveness happened in layers.

Speaker 6 51:30

Yeah.

Walter 51:31

So healing happened in layers, there's layers to healing, yeah, there's layers to forgiveness.

Shanea 51:36

Yep.

Walter 51:36

And that's essentially what my wife was saying.

Shanea 51:39

Yeah.

Walter 51:40

So to close all of this out, um, and we've said this so many times, and we will say it again. Forgiveness does not excuse the offense. Forgiveness does not erase consequences. People don't like to deal with consequences. There's consequences to every decision you make. Forgiveness does not always restore the relationship. Forgiveness is choosing to release a person from the personal debt of revenge and entrusting justice to God. When you forgive, you are not saying they were right. You are saying that God is the judge and you are no longer carrying what belongs to him. Right?

Shanea 52:20

Yeah, you take it to court.

Walter 52:22

Romans 12 19 says what? And that came to me earlier. Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. Forgiveness is not weakness, forgiveness is not agreement, forgiveness is not surrendering justice, forgiveness is trusting God enough to let it go.

Shanea 52:43

Yeah, and let him deal with it.

Walter 52:45

You have to give it over to God. So I think the greatest power is, right, and this is this is really important, and hopefully this the power of forgiveness is not found in what it it does for the offender. The power of forgiveness is found in what it does for the one who chooses to forgive. Forgiveness is not about them, forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness is to make sure forgiveness when you're forgiving people, is to put you in right standing, not only with God, but yet yourself.

Shanea 53:29

Yes. And then it it opens your your your your discernment and your clarity up for the other person not to be able to do the same thing again. And then on top of that, like because that that is where the control lies.

Walter 53:47

Yes. So you have to just let it go. We have to learn to let go and let God.

Speaker 5 53:54

Yes.

Walter 53:55

Let go and let God. So that's everything. Babe, is there anything else that you wanted to add to this episode, tonight? Anything else you want to say?

Shanea 54:06

No.

Walter 54:07

I will say this. We don't say it all the time.

Shanea 54:10

There's plenty of examples I could give.

Walter 54:12

We know. We don't say it all the time. I don't say it all the time. I can't take uh credit for anything that we touch on. It's beyond me. Sometimes when we were speaking, there's things that the Holy Spirit is depositing to say. Um, I when I first heard that he wanted us to uh discuss forgiveness in this week's episode, I was like, I was questioning what I was hearing because to me it didn't make sense. And I heard it again, forgiveness.

Shanea 54:40

Yeah, and then I got something about I don't remember what it was.

Walter 54:42

Yeah, and I'm like, okay, God, is this me or is this you? And I heard the power of forgiveness. And now that we've uh gone through this process of discussing this and we've had this conversation, I see the importance of this being uh brought up. I see the importance of this needing to be out there uh because a lot of us misconstrue forgiveness. A lot of us mix forgiveness up with reconciliation. A lot and it goes back to that scripture that says, What my people perish because of the lack of knowledge, I believe it's in Hosea.

Shanea 55:18

And it's not to dismiss what has happened to you because I need to know for me, sometimes I would um because of where I was mentally and in my traumatic state, that when I forgave someone, it was pushing back my own feelings and discernment and everything that was happening to me because there was a level of shame or fear, or like I said, gaslighting there, so that it didn't look like I was being the person who was being stubborn or not being forgiving.

Walter 56:08

Well, we we said this so many times tonight or this morning. Well, and we may we say this a few times, but let's say it again. Forgiveness does not mean it did not happen. Forgiveness does not mean that it did not take place, that it did not happen. Forgiveness does not excuse the fact that it hurts. Forgiveness does not excuse the fact that they were wrong. It has nothing to do with that. You could forgive the person, yet all of that still be true.

Shanea 56:37

And you could still have those boundaries.

Walter 56:39

And then important more importantly, here's the thing, right? Forgiveness does not mean that you're healed.

Shanea 56:46

Yeah.

Walter 56:47

I can forgive you and still need to work through healing.

Shanea 56:50

Yeah, that's true.

Walter 56:51

It's two different things. So if you forgive someone, you still can be hurt and still have to process through the healing of what took place of what that person did to you.

Shanea 57:04

Right. Which is really good because then you some people they would say they forgave and then they would reconcile, but you're still dealing with hurt.

Walter 57:13

Yes.

Shanea 57:13

You're still dealing with the wound that they gave you.

Walter 57:17

So there's a difference between now hurt and and not being healed can turn into anger, right? But it's not the same as being angry because you have offense.

Speaker 6 57:28

Yeah.

Walter 57:29

And that's another thing to understand. There's hurt, there's anger that can come from hurt and pain, right? And then there's anger that can come from offense.

Speaker 3 57:39

Yeah.

Walter 57:39

And so that's one of the things that people struggle with sometimes because it's like, hey, I've forgiven this person, but I'm still hurting.

Speaker 6 57:48

Yeah.

Walter 57:48

I should not be hurting. Yes, you should. Because what they did to you was a real thing. Yeah. They stabbed you. Impact you. And it really was a hurtful encounter, hurtful experience. You were betrayed, you were let down, you were rejected, you were abused, you went through all of these things, and now you have to go to God and say, God, help me to walk through the healing process.

Shanea 58:12

Why do we always give this like gem stuff after we'd be like, I don't know. This is it, you guys.

Walter 58:17

I don't know. That's that's the Holy Spirit. Ain't got anything. Actually, that but it's it's really important to understand that just like reconciliation and forgiveness is different, healing and forgiveness is different too. The two can be true. You can truly have forgiven that person that still have hurt and pain.

Shanea 58:36

Right. And you still and take that time for yourself to heal, they'll be okay.

Walter 58:43

So there's a difference, like, you know, if you're you're like, okay, I keep asking for forgiveness. I think about, I think upon the encounter or whatever took place and it hurts me, that's you need to be healed. But if you think upon the encounter and it angers you, most likely you're still walking in unforgiveness. Right.

Shanea 59:03

And then, I mean, I know we didn't touch on the person who has done the wrong and needs to be forgiven. You have to also go to God and say, God, why did I do this in the first place?

Walter 59:15

Yes.

Shanea 59:15

You have to uproot things from your for yourself.

Walter 59:19

But unfortunately, um, those are few and far in between. Oh, absolutely. But what it is, do you do have some?

Speaker 3 59:27

Mm-hmm. You have some.

Walter 59:28

Because we think of like King David, but they're they're few and far in between.

Speaker 3 59:33

Yes.

Walter 59:34

But um, there's neither here

Blessing Thanks And Closing

Walter 59:36

nor there. Uh, we will begin, we'll get ready to end this episode out. Uh, we pray that this has been a blessing to you all.

Speaker 2 59:42

Yes.

Walter 59:43

Um, we appreciate everyone, and we are going to continue to work to have an episode put out each week until this season is over. And we go on I hi Hades, however long God allows us.

Shanea 59:58

Um if we get another one.

Walter 1:00:00

I hope so. And so I'm tired. We pray these have been a blessing to you. We appreciate you all. Uh, we appreciate the comments. I think my wife be trying to get to the comments as much as possible. We're gonna get back to posting on Instagram and all of those good things. Just keep us in prayer. Anything else you want to add, babe?

Speaker 5 1:00:23

No.

Walter 1:00:24

All right.

Speaker 5 1:00:25

We appreciate you guys.

Walter 1:00:27

Y'all be blessed and enjoy your day, your weekend.

Shanea 1:00:31

Day, week, weekend.

Walter 1:00:34

Okay. Until next time. Bye.